BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
We start, however, with the news that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and four other 9/11 suspects will be tried in federal court in New York City. U.S. congresswoman Donna Edwards, a Democrat from Maryland, Republican congressman Michael McCaul of Texas is a member of the Homeland Security and Foreign Affairs Committee.
Mr. McCaul, I want you to start. What would you have done, had you been president and had to make this decision, along with the attorney general? Where would you try these guys? Or would you not try them?
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL ®, TEXAS: Well, first let met say its a sad day when the mastermind of 9/11 is brought on American soil, to the very spot where 3,000 Americans were killed. If I were president for the day, I would have tried these not as criminal defendants in the United States but treat them as enemies of war before a military tribunal, as we did in World War II. We were going down that path...
MATTHEWS: And then do--and what would you do with them if they were convicted? What would you do with them then? If you didnt execute them, what would you do with them?
MCCAUL: Well, I--its my sincere hope that they do get the death penalty in this case. But I think bringing them...
MATTHEWS: But if they got some other penalty, what would you do with them then? Its a tricky question. I answer (ph) is because the whole things tricky. What do we do with these people? You see them as war criminals, some other people as criminal suspects. What do you do with them if theyre war criminals? What do we do if this war goes on and on and on forever, basically, against terrorism? What do we do with these people?
MCCAUL: Well, again, military tribunal. They were getting ready to go forward. The president came in, stopped the process, said were going to close down Guantanamo Bay. We should have gone forward with these top cases, where the evidence would be...
MATTHEWS: OK, what do we do with them?
MCCAUL: ... sufficient to convict and get the death penalty, execute them.
MATTHEWS: Well, if we dont get them on the death penalty, what do we do with them then--if they dont get the death penalty? A lot of them may not be guilty of the death penalty.
MCCAUL: Well, theyre...
MATTHEWS: What do we do with them?
MCCAUL: I was a federal prosecutor in the Justice Department. They will either get life in prison or the death penalty. The risk of bringing...
MATTHEWS: OK, where would we put them?
MCCAUL: ... them in the...
MATTHEWS: Where would we--sir, Ive asked you three times. What do we do with them if we dont execute them?
MCCAUL: I--they should stay in Guantanamo (INAUDIBLE) thats the mistake...
MATTHEWS: So keep Guantanamo there.
MCCAUL: ... that was made.
MATTHEWS: OK. So you say...
MCCAUL: Absolutely.
MATTHEWS: ... the smart move would have been to keep Guantanamo there as a place a to put war suspects when we convict them, execute them there. If we dont execute them there, keep them there. Thats your policy.
MCCAUL: Right. We should not...
MATTHEWS: OK, thats smart.
MCCAUL: ... be importing them...
MATTHEWS: I mean, thats a view I...
MCCAUL: ... into the United States.
MATTHEWS: Its very clear, sir. I like clarity.
Lets go to Congresswoman Edwards. Your view? Youve got that one view, which is to keep them on Guantanamo. Keep Gitmo there. Prosecute them. If you cant execute them, if you get them on a lesser charge, keep them there until they--until they rot, I suppose. What are your thinking?
REP. DONNA EDWARDS (D), MARYLAND: Well, lets start...
MATTHEWS: Whats your thinking?
EDWARDS: Lets start with first things first, Chris. I mean, first thing, I think it was the right call by the attorney general and by the president to make sure that we go to trial in New York, in a place where were actually used to these kind of prosecutions. And I think, you know, once we go through trial and theres a conviction, it sounds like, obviously, the death penalty is on the table, the federal death penalty. Im not a big supporter of the death penalty, but thats what the law is, and...
MATTHEWS: Well, what would you do?
EDWARDS: And I think that...
MATTHEWS: What would you do?
EDWARDS: You know what? Thats what the law is. And I think that we
· this is the--this is the challenge here. We need to make sure that we follow our own judicial process, follow our own constitutional mandate, try these people, let the victims get their justice and the American people get their justice. And if theyre found guilty, you know, theyre put to death under the law. And if its life in prison, I think that we can secure them, even here in our borders.
MATTHEWS: So you trust the jury system in this regard. You would trust a jury for a unanimous vote in all these cases?
EDWARDS: You know why I do? Because we actually have a history of federal trials and federal prosecutions for terrorism. I think something like 190 of these cases have actually been tried in the federal courts, with that number of convictions. And unfortunately, the military tribunals process, even with the revamped Military Commissions Act, actually hasnt worked. But our federal courts actually have worked. And so thats why Im actually really glad that the president and the attorney general...
MATTHEWS: OK...
EDWARDS: ... are moving forward in this direction.
MATTHEWS: Lets take a look at what Rudolph Giuliani--whos clearly thinking about running for governor of New York. He put out this statement today. Quote, "Returning some of the Guantanamo detainees to New York City for trial, specifically Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has now brought us full circle. We have regressed to a pre-9/11 mentality with respect to Islamic extremist terrorism. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed should be treated like the war criminal he is and tried in a military court. He is not just another murderer or even a mass murderer, he murdered as part of a declared war against the United States."
Your thoughts on that, Congressman McCaul? Explain to me, as a former prosecutor, the distinction between somebody who kills as part of a war and someone who just kills because theyre murderers.
MCCAUL: Well, in the Clinton era, we prosecuted Ramzi Yousef as a criminal defendant. It seems like were going back to that policy. In my view, these--Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, these top operatives, are enemies of war and should be treated as such with a military tribunal. I completely agree with Rudy Giulianis assessment in this case. And the admissibility of evidence is very different in a military tribunal versus a federal court, when youre dealing with intelligence. I think thats a better route.
Again, are they--are these people, the terrorists, enemies of war or are they to be treated as criminal defendants? This administration has now made its decision that they are criminal defendants, to be given all the rights under the Constitution once they touch base in New York City, and not to mention the security risk thats going to be placed on a city that has been consistently a target of al Qaeda.
MATTHEWS: Let me go back to Congresswoman Edwards. Heres a problem. If you get into court and a smart defense attorney--Id think of it, and Im not even a lawyer. This guy was waterboarded 83 times, KSM, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. He probably admitted all kinds of things under waterboarding. All that evidence is tainted. Its contaminated, even if you go find evidence elsewhere, based on that. A smart defense attorney can say its all contaminated evidence. Its fruit of a poison tree, or whatever, whatever the term is. And you get the guy off.
EDWARDS: Well, I actually...
MATTHEWS: Wouldnt that happen if you were the defense attorney? Wouldnt you be able to make that case, that this guy admitted his guilt under torture, 183 cases of waterboarding? What kind of evidence is that?
EDWARDS: You know, theyre going to be able to put up a defense, but I think I heard very clearly from the attorney general today that, in fact, theres independent evidence that he believes, as a former prosecutor, as a former high-level prosecutor, that will result in a conviction. And I think that on this one, weve got, you know, really superior prosecutors who are going to take this case...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
EDWARDS: ... all the way through. And Im actually convinced because of their record that the federal district courts and our federal judges actually can handle both the intelligence levels that were dealing with and the trial and get a conviction.
MATTHEWS: But wouldnt you...
MCCAUL: Hey, Chris, the first...
MATTHEWS: ... as a defense attorney--let me ask you, Congressman, this question. Wouldnt you--forget--I know what you want to do, get these guys tried offshore and get them tried at Gitmo. Thats your position. But if you were a defense attorney in New York City and you were on the other side of this fight, wouldnt you bring in Cheney? Wouldnt you bring all the guys who supported waterboarding and nail them?
MCCAUL: Absolutely.
MATTHEWS: Youd use this as a show trial opportunity, wouldnt you?
MCCAUL: The first motion Id file is a motion to suppress the evidence obtained through waterboarding. Then I would file a ton of discovery to find out all the classified information, youre right, regarding Cheney, regarding--and this is going to turn into a real circus. I think the military is better equipped to handle this in a professional way.
The southern district of New York U.S. attorneys office is one of the
finest in the country. Its some of the best prosecutors. But the point -
· the minute we put them on American soil and they get constitutional rights, this will turn into a showcase, a circus. And again, Im concerned about the security of New York City and whats going to happen when these top al Qaeda operatives set foot in the United States. The majority of the American people do not want to see this happen.
MATTHEWS: Well, what are you worried about there? Are you worried about we cant handle a bunch of troublemakers in New York? I think the--thats where I might disagree with you. Dont you think the American--the police, New Yorks finest, cant handle a bunch of bums causing trouble? I mean, whats the problem?
MCCAUL: I saw--I saw...
MATTHEWS: Weve got thousands and thousands of hardened murderers in federal prison right now. I dont but that--weve got the scariest people in the world in federal prison right now, in maximum security.
MCCAUL: But...
MATTHEWS: These guys, once theyre isolated, it seem to me theyre--theyre not anywhere near as dangerous as the guys we have in prison right now in this country. Americans can be much more frightening than these guys.
EDWARDS: Well, and Chris, I mean, the fact is that...
MCCAUL: Well, I saw--I saw Khalid Shaikh--I saw Khalid Shaikh Mohammed down in Guantanamo. Thats another--thats very high secure. My concern about bringing him into the United States is not the security of the prison itself, but the mecca that that will create for potential either home-grown...
MATTHEWS: OK...
MCCAUL: ... or al Qaeda operatives to come to New York.
MATTHEWS: And bomb things. What do you think of that, Congresswoman, the fact that we might have--we might have a bombing target in Foley Square or someplace in New York...
MCCAUL: Exactly.
MATTHEWS: ... a courthouse where all the bad guys are going to come and just declare a military target, if you will?
EDWARDS: You know, Chris, the federal courts have actually handled these circumstances before, high-level security thats required. Its been handled in Arlington, with prosecutions in Arlington, Virginia, handled in New York, in the southern district of New York. I think our federal prosecutors and our judges are entirely capable of meting out the justice thats deserved and that the victims families deserve and the American people deserve to see carried out.
And so Im actually glad that weve moved to this point. And I, in fact, think its a step forward. The military tribunals have actually only handled three of those prosecutions. The federal district courts have handled and gotten convictions in more than 190 cases. They can do this. We can do this...
MATTHEWS: OK.
EDWARDS: ... and our federal prosecutors are going to get the justice that the victims families deserve.
MATTHEWS: Well, thank you so much, Congresswoman, and thank you, Congressman. By the way, one of the great things about America, no matter what side youre on in this argument, is that we have these arguments. This is a great country because we fight about this stuff.
MCCAUL: I agree.
MATTHEWS: Human rights matters, even in cases of the worst people in the world, but sometimes I think we got to treat them a little tougher than we treat your average criminal. Anyway, thank you.
Coming up: Here comes Sarah Palin. Were going to have some fun now, Im going to tell you. Shes got a book out. I dont know if she wrote this thing or a ghost writer wrote it, but nobodys going to get a bigger ride than Sarah Palin. By the way, thats not Tina Fey, thats the real thing right there, the real genuine article. This woman, I think, is running for something like president. Im not sure. Can Sarah Palin do what Reagan did, unseat a Democratic president? I think shes got very high ambitions, and they may be in her case wildly appropriate.
Youre watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.
BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT