CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Joe Manchin

Interview

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TAPPER: And welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Jake Tapper.

The Senate is hoping to wrap up a bipartisan infrastructure deal this week.

For Democrats, of course, that's just the first step. Next, they're going to turn to a $3.5 trillion reconciliation budget package that they're planning to pass at the same time full of progressive priorities such as child and elder care, climate crisis measures, an expansion to Medicaid.

Joining us now is one of the most powerful Democratic senators and a key negotiator on this infrastructure package, Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia.

[09:25:02]

Senator Manchin, it's good to see you. Thanks so much.

(CROSSTALK)

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): Good to...

(CROSSTALK)

MANCHIN: ... Jake, in person. It's...

TAPPER: Yes, I haven't seen you in person in a long, long time.

(CROSSTALK)

MANCHIN: It's too long.

TAPPER: Good to see you.

So, Schumer says he wants to finish up this bipartisan infrastructure deal in a matter of days.

MANCHIN: Yes.

TAPPER: We haven't seen it yet. When do you think we will?

MANCHIN: Today

TAPPER: Today?

MANCHIN: Yes. I think you will see text today.

And by this evening, hopefully, we can start the process, hopefully start our amendment process by tomorrow.

TAPPER: Wow.

MANCHIN: We should finish up by Thursday, I hope.

TAPPER: And you think it will pass?

MANCHIN: I do. Oh, absolutely, I do.

Let me tell you, Jake, when you see Chuck Schumer and you see Mitch McConnell both voting for the same thing, it's unbelievable. But the bottom line is...

TAPPER: Yes, that never happens.

MANCHIN: No. And I will tell you this. Senator Schumer has really been great on this, allowing us to work this process, bringing everybody, trying to get a bipartisan deal, no matter what you might have heard. He's been working hard, keeping us engaged. Everyone's engaged. We keep telling him we're getting closer and closer. We have got the text done now.

Basically, it's just drafting right now.

TAPPER: Speaker Pelosi says she's not going to hold a vote on the bill, assuming it passes the Senate, until the much larger $3.5 trillion budget reconciliation bill passes the Senate.

Some moderate House Democrats say that the House should vote on the infrastructure bill as soon as they can. What strategy do you support?

MANCHIN: Well, I would never get Speaker Pelosi any advice on how she's going to run -- she does -- she does a great job.

And I just believe that every bill should go up on its own merits. I really do.

TAPPER: Senator Warren...

MANCHIN: And I have always said that.

TAPPER: Senator Warren described these two bills as really one big package. Is that how you view it?

MANCHIN: Well, I didn't. I never did view it that way.

I respect Senator Warren and everybody else who has a different perspective of this. The bottom line is that, for the last three decades, we have been trying to, previous administrations have been trying to do a large infrastructure bill.

When you talk about roads and bridges and rails and train and everything that goes with it, and Internet services, it's something that every state, every area of every state needs. So, this is something you should be getting 80 or 90 votes on.

And, right now, we're going to do great on that. But I have always felt that infrastructure, traditional infrastructure is traditional infrastructure. And a pothole doesn't have a Republican or Democrat's name on it. It'll bust your tire and tear up your car. We need to fix things.

TAPPER: Yes.

Let's talk about the sweeping reconciliation bill. Arizona Senator Kyrsten Sinema, who is one of the other moderates...

MANCHIN: Sure.

TAPPER: ... among Democrats in the Senate, she made headlines this week saying that a $3.5 trillion bill is too big for her to support.

Now, I know you have said you're keeping an open mind.

MANCHIN: Sure.

TAPPER: But you have previously said you're concerned about the debt and inflation. You have suggested you could back $2 trillion.

Would you prefer this bill be smaller?

MANCHIN: Well, let me just say this, out of respect for all of my colleagues who've worked so hard, and I respect them too. Hopefully, they respect us for what we have been doing, the more moderate group or conservative group of the Democratic Party.

But, with that, you have to have a blend. So, where they are right now, everyone should be concerned about debt. We're at 28 -- almost $28.6 trillion of debt. And our debt goes up $4 billion a day. If you're sleeping, if it's the weekend, whatever, it goes up $4 billion a day.

Someone should be concerned about getting your financial house in order. So I'm worried about that. I'm worried about inflation. But, with that, we're going to pay for it. So, let's see what the pay-fors -- if they're real. Let's see if the tax adjustments we're going to make -- I didn't vote for the 2017. I thought it was weighted to the wrong side.

So, if we make some adjustments, do we -- are we going to go overboard and make ourselves noncompetitive? I wouldn't be for that.

TAPPER: Politico reports that, when you brought up the federal deficit at a Democratic Caucus luncheon on Tuesday, you were booed.

MANCHIN: I'm not sure. I...

TAPPER: You were booed.

MANCHIN: I heard a lot of no's. I don't know if it -- maybe it was boo no or no boo or something.

And what it was, was this, I just said, basically that -- just what I told you. Both of these bills should go up on its own merits.

TAPPER: Yes.

MANCHIN: Some of my colleagues, my friends who thought differently, it should be all one or should -- one should go with the other, felt, no, that -- so, I understand that.

And we had some good back-and-forths. They know who I am. They know where I come from. And they know what I'm about. And I have been up front with them.

TAPPER: After you come on the show, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez, one of the leaders of the progressive movement in the Democratic Party...

MANCHIN: Sure.

TAPPER: ... is going to talk.

You are, I would say, one of the leaders, if not the leader, of the more moderate Democratic Party on Capitol Hill.

Can you guarantee to AOC that a reconciliation package will pass the Senate? Because her concern is that this infrastructure bill might be bipartisan, but it's scaled back so much, it's not as bold as it should be and what the country needs.

Can you guarantee her that the reconciliation package will pass?

MANCHIN: I can't really guarantee anybody. And I have not guaranteed anybody on any of these pieces of legislation.

Would we like to do more? Yes, you can do what you can pay for. This is paid for. Our infrastructure bill is all paid for. We don't have a debt, that we're going to incur more debt in throwing onto it.

And on the other, as far as reconciliation goes, it should be looked at the same. That's why I said we're going to get the budget resolution. Let's start the process and then see where it goes.

On that, we should just work in good faith and be honest with each other, so no one's misled any way, shape or form, and there should be no quid pro quo. You do this, I will do this.

[09:30:00]

When it comes to big legislation, does it help the American people? How do you tell over 80 percent of people, Democrats and Republicans, that we can't do an infrastructure bill, a traditional infrastructure? There's a lot of need out there for the human infrastructure, I understand.

But some of these programs that they are going to be putting in place could be in perpetuity, and even though it only has a 10-year run on it. So it's being scored at 10 years at 3.5. It might have perpetuity, would be $5 trillion or more. So we have to look at everything and be honest with ourselves.

TAPPER: Senator Amy Klobuchar said this week that you are very close to an agreement on voting rights legislation.

MANCHIN: Uh-huh.

TAPPER: One of the main questions has been what kind of national voter I.D. rules it will include or allow on the state level.

What can you tell us about that? And could we see that agreement this week?

MANCHIN: Well, it's the same. We all have a desire.

First of all, the whole stronghold of our democracy, the bedrock of our democracy, is an open, fair and secured election. People have to know that, basically, at the end of the day, when the count is made, it's accurate, and either you have won or I have won. However it's done, it's supposed to be an orderly transfer.

Under President Trump, we have not seen an orderly transfer, we have not seen an acceptance of basically the will of the people. And that has made it very difficult.

So, when you have 41 million people still believing that maybe Joe Biden's not the duly elected, which he absolutely is, and it was done in a very fair and very, very secure system, that we have got to make sure, whatever we do, we don't divide our country further.

So, people say, well, what's Joe going to do or what's Joe going -- what's he for or against? I will not do anything, Jake, that will separate our country further. And to do a major overhaul on voter and on voting the rights bill, take the Voting Rights Act that we had in '65, use the John Lewis -- and John Lewis, the most decent human being -- and make sure we stay within the guidelines of what we're supposed to, protect the elections, not going into this expansive overhaul, if you will, to the point to where it can be overturned in court.

And we have been seeing the courts overturn some of this.

TAPPER: I know you want it to be bipartisan.

MANCHIN: It should be.

TAPPER: But I don't know how possible that is. The only Republican I have heard talk about this in a positive way is Lisa Murkowski of Alaska.

MANCHIN: You know what I can't understand, Jake? And I'm sorry to interrupt you on that.

But I cannot understand, how did it pass 98-0 in 2006, and now it's not possible for that to happen?

TAPPER: I don't know, but is there any circumstance under which you could imagine allowing a carve-out for the -- I know you oppose getting rid of the filibuster.

But there are -- there are some people in the more moderate camp, like Angus King of Maine, who is an independent...

MANCHIN: Sure.

TAPPER: ... who said that he's possibly willing to step back from the filibuster, his opposition to getting rid of the filibuster, just for voting rights because he's so concerned and it becomes -- it's become so partisan.

Can you imagine ever doing that?

MANCHIN: Jake, I can't imagine a carve-out, because I was here in 2013 when it was called a carve-out. We're just going to do the Cabinet for the president. And then it went into, we're going to do the judges who are lifetime appointments for circuit and district. They were even going to do Supreme Court, but they didn't at that time. The Democrats were in control.

2017, Mitch McConnell's in control, comes right back in, and guess what? That carve-out worked to really carve us up pretty bad.

TAPPER: Yes.

MANCHIN: Then you got the Supreme Court, OK?

So there's no stopping it. And if we don't put this place back in order, you get rid of the filibuster, which makes us work together -- and I have said this. The whole -- the brilliancy of our founding fathers was this.

Why in the world did they give two senators to Rhode Island and Delaware at the time they were forming this great nation of ours, when they told New York and Pennsylvania and Ohio, hey, you only get two too?

It was basically to make us work together, so that the big states wouldn't overrun the little states. It's minority participation.

TAPPER: Quick question for you before you leave, sir.

MANCHIN: Sure.

TAPPER: The House tried and failed to extend the CDC's eviction moratorium this week.

They failed, so millions of Americans are at risk of losing their homes in the coming weeks. There is this desire to extend the moratorium.

MANCHIN: Sure.

TAPPER: And Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez is going to talk about this, to extend the moratorium to get this money, tens of billions of dollars that are sitting there, for renters to be able to pay their rent, to go to landlords who need to pay the mortgages, et cetera.

Are you in favor of extending the moratorium?

MANCHIN: Jake, first of all, the money's already there, as you said.

TAPPER: Right.

MANCHIN: Why didn't it go out the door? I can't tell you that.

TAPPER: I don't know.

MANCHIN: But to put blame on anybody right now, let's fix that and make sure that we're able to use the money for the purpose it was appropriated for. But, also, the economy's coming back strong. Everybody can get a vaccination. I hope they have. But still yet they're trying to get your feet back under them again from a real tough year. We understand all that.

So, we should be compassionate. We should help. And if that money is there, we should use it for its extended purpose.

TAPPER: So, you should -- you would support extending the moratorium to get the money out the door?

MANCHIN: Absolutely. Absolutely, for the money -- it's not new money. It's not more debt.

TAPPER: Right.

MANCHIN: It's already money we've appropriated.

TAPPER: Senator Joe Manchin from the great state of West Virginia, thank you so much.

MANCHIN: Thanks, Jake. Always good to be with you.

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