CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Senator Mitt Romney

Interview

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[09:19:24]

TAPPER: Welcome back to State of the Union. I'm Jake Tapper.

After months of negotiations, stretching into the early hours of this morning, leaders on Capitol Hill now say votes could come as soon as today on a $900 billion relief package.

This would help millions of Americans whose checks from the federal government are set to stop the day after Christmas.

Joining me now is a senator who has been deeply involved in the negotiations, Republican Mitt Romney of Utah, also a former Republican presidential nominee.

Senator Romney, it's good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.

I want to get to that relief bill in just one second.

But, first, I have to ask you. President Trump held a meeting on Friday in which he reportedly discussed with his disgraced former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn this deranged idea to declare martial law to force new elections in states that Biden won.

[09:20:08]

They also discussed appointing conspiracy theorist Sidney Powell as a special counsel to investigate her baseless claims of election fraud, and also issuing an executive order to seize voting machines.

This is, needless to say, quite alarming and scary to a lot of people. What's your response? What will Senate Republicans do to make sure none of this madness happens?

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): Well, it's not going to happen. That's going nowhere.

And I understand the president is casting about, trying to find some way to have a different result than the one that was delivered by the American people.

But it's really sad, in a lot of respects, and embarrassing, because the president could right now be writing the last chapter of this administration with a victory lap with regards to the vaccine. After all, he pushed aggressively to get the vaccine developed and distributed. That's happening on a quick time frame.

He could be going out and championing this extraordinary success.

And, instead, he's leaving Washington with a whole series of conspiracy theories and things that are so nutty and loopy that people are shaking their head, wondering, what in the world has gotten into this man?

And I think that's unfortunate, because he has more accomplishments than this last chapter suggests he's going to be known for.

TAPPER: I know you're eager to talk about the stimulus negotiations.

It seems like there was a major breakthrough last night. Do you believe there is going to be a deal today?

ROMNEY: Well, I believe there's going to be a deal. There are always sticking points. But the big one was resolved last night very late.

And over the past, if -- you know, if several weeks, there's been a lot of work done. Of course, it should have happened a long time ago. But we got a group together about four weeks ago that sat down and said, hey, we have got to find a way to get some progress here, four Republicans, four Democrats.

We met time and time and time again. We came up with a $900 billion, roughly, proposal. That was picked up by leadership on both sides. And they're working on some additional points.

But I think it's going to get done. It'll get done before Christmas.

TAPPER: One of the major sticking points has been the size of the direct payments to Americans. President Trump weighed in last night, tweeting that Congress should send more money. Where does that stand? Is it still, do you think, going to be at about $600 per individual?

ROMNEY: Yes, it's going to be $600. And it would be nice to be even more than that.

But I think there's a recognition the part of those of us that worked on this deal that our highest priority is to get people who are worried about keeping their job. And so getting, if you will, help to small business is critical, helping people that are unemployed have extension of unemployment benefits, also housing support.

And then, of course, cost -- the cost of vaccine distribution needs to be covered. We want to keep airlines flying, buses going, transit systems going. All these things are very, very high priority. So, the check is going to be roughly $600 a person. And that will help, although I know people would like it to be a larger number.

TAPPER: Let's go to the massive ongoing cyberattack against the United States, which has affected countless government agencies and private companies.

Senate Intelligence Committee chairman, your colleague Senator Marco Rubio, said it was essentially an act of war. Colorado Congressman Jason Crow called it the cyber equivalent of Pearl Harbor. Is that how you see it?

ROMNEY: Well, it's extraordinarily severe.

And, actually, Tom Bossert, who was the president's national security adviser -- homeland security adviser, said that you couldn't overstate how serious this attack was.

And it's an invasion of kind on our cyberspace. And just to put it in context, if you think back 20 years ago, when we were attacking Baghdad, you saw these cruise missiles being launched from ships going across the landscape, and then taking out the communications towers, the utility towers and so forth, because you can cripple a country by doing so.

Well, what Russia has done is put in place a capacity to potentially cripple us, in terms of our electricity, our water, our communications. I mean, this is the same sort of thing one can do in a wartime setting.

And so it's extraordinarily dangerous. And it's an outrageous affront on our sovereignty, and one that's going to have to be met with a very strong response, not just rhetorical, important as that is, but also with a cyber-response of like magnitude or greater.

TAPPER: White House officials were prepared to publicly blame Russia for this hack on Friday, as you just did, but they were told to stand down.

And then, yesterday, President Trump tweeted this: "The cyber-hack is far greater in the fake news media than in actuality. I have been fully briefed, and everything is well under control. Russia, Russia, Russia is the priority chant whenever anything happens because lamestream is, for mostly financial reasons, petrified of discussing the possibility that it may be China. It may."

And the president goes on to tie all of this to his baseless allegations of election fraud, which I won't repeat here.

This is part of a long pattern throughout the Trump presidency of President Trump refusing to hold Russia accountable, even though you and Tom Bossert and the secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, have all said this was Russia.

[09:25:08]

What's your response to the president's tweet?

ROMNEY: Well, the president has a blind spot when it comes to Russia. And so you can expect that that's the response that he would have.

But, when it comes to matters of intrusion into our cyberspace, I, frankly, look to the experts, because I'm not an expert on that dimension. And the experts, the thousands upon thousands who work at the Department of Defense in the intelligence unit, the CIA, the National Security Administration, and others who've looked at this said, well, there's no question it's come from Russia.

They have done this sort of thing before. They have done it again. And what it underscores is, Russia acts with impunity with regards to these cyberattacks because they don't think we have the capacity to respond in like measure.

They also recognize that our defense is inadequate. And they have come to recognize that what will come from the White House will not be the kind of rhetoric which would be jarring.

So, this is a big wakeup call for us. And I think we're going to have to really rethink our military and national security readiness when it comes to cyberspace, because this is the warfare of the future. And I hope that we get ourselves up to the capacity you would expect the strongest, greatest nation on Earth to have.

TAPPER: Former White House cybersecurity czar Richard Clarke told me a few days ago something similar to what you just said, that there aren't many options left for sanctions. The only way for Russia to take us seriously is to hurt them back in the cyber-sphere.

I have to ask. When you ran for president in 2012, President Obama and his team mocked you for saying that Russia was the number one geopolitical foe of the United States. You were proven correct about that.

A lot of those same people who mocked you in 2012 are about to take over the foreign policy of the United States. Do you think they now agree that Russia is the number one geopolitical foe of the United States, or at least one of the top two with China? ROMNEY: I do, actually.

I had the chance to be with Madeleine Albright, former secretary of state under the Obama administration. And she said, you were right. And we didn't recognize it at the time. But she said, you were right.

And it was nice to hear. But I would have rather seen the actions taken then that would have prevented the kind of things from occurring that we have seen over the last several years.

But I think that president-elect Biden is a clear-eyed and intelligent individual. And he's going to assess Russia and their capabilities in an appropriate way. But I also think that he will look at China and recognize that, long term, China is the more significant threat to America.

Russia is, if you will, a gas station parading as a country, as John McCain used to say. And they have got extraordinary difficulties, and they're lashing out in a moment of decline.

China, of course, is emerging stronger and stronger, and presents an extraordinary threat to freedom around the world and to our prosperity here. And so that's going to be the more significant challenge that will be faced by a new president.

But I have confidence that the people around the president, president- elect, and the president-elect himself will recognize the severity of what we face on the global front.

TAPPER: Senator, you're consistently one of the only Republicans in Washington willing to criticize President Trump and break with your party on issues of principle. There are two or three guys in the House. You're pretty alone in the Senate.

Republican leaders have either remain silent or actively supported the president's deranged claims about the election. Do you still recognize the Republican Party?

ROMNEY: Well, the party has taken a different course than, obviously, the one that I knew as a younger person.

And, I mean, the party that I knew is one that was very concerned about Russia and Putin and Kim Jong-un and North Korea. We pushed back aggressively against them. We were a party concerned about balancing the budget. We believed in trade with other nations. We were happy to play a leadership role on the world stage, because we felt that made us safer and more prosperous. And we believed that character was essential in the leaders that we chose.

We have strayed from that. I don't see us returning to that for a long time. As I look at the 2024 contenders, most of them are trying to become as much like Donald Trump as they can be, although I must admit that his style and shtick, if you will, is difficult to duplicate. He's an extraordinarily talented person from that standpoint.

But, yes, I represent a very small slice of the Republican Party today. But, you know, everybody has to stand up for what they believe. And I believe my colleagues are doing what they think is right.

TAPPER: Do you ever think about leaving the Republican Party, as Congressman Paul Mitchell did, to protest the attacks on democracy that the Republican Party and President Trump are doing right now?

[09:30:08]

ROMNEY: I think I'm more effective in the Republican Party, continuing to battle for the things I believe in.

And I think, ultimately, the Republican Party will return to the roots that have been formed over the -- well, the century. So, we will get back at some point. And, hopefully, people will recognize we need to take a different course than the one we're on right now.

TAPPER: Senator Romney, merry Christmas, and best wishes to you and Ann and your whole family for 2021. Thanks for joining us today.

ROMNEY: Thanks, Jake. Good to be with you.

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