MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript: Removal of Confederate Flag in South Carolina

Interview

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KORNACKI: ... Many national leaders, both Democratic and Republican, cheered the
move today. President Obama tweeted, "South Carolina taking down the
Confederate flag, a signal of good will and healing and a meaningful step
toward a better future."

I`m joined now by Todd Rutherford, a South Carolina state
representative and Democratic leader of the statehouse there, and Clarence
Page, a columnist for "The Chicago Tribune."

Well, Representative Rutherford, let me start with you. You`re --
you`re there right now where that happened. You were there earlier today
to witness that moment in person. We just showed an incredible scene,
really, basically 10,000 people. You could hear those cheers. You could
almost feel the intensity watching it on television.

Just tell us what it was like to be there and to watch as that flag
was lowered for good today.

TODD RUTHERFORD (D), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: It was one
of the most moving scenes I`ve ever witnessed. And I`ve been in the
legislature now for 17 years. I`m 44 years old. And I never thought it
would happen.

I brought my kids here to see it. I brought my mother and father
because my father, when he was growing up, he couldn`t walk on the
statehouse grounds because he was black.

For so many people, it was a day to cheer, it was a day to say good-
bye to something that was divisive, something that caused a great deal of
hatred.

And as you look behind me, you notice the crowds are gone because
those people that wanted to come up here and cause trouble, those people
that wanted to come up here and fight with somebody, they no longer have
anything to rally around.

That flag is gone, and we`re glad to have it gone.

KORNACKI: And Clarence Page, taking a step back here and just
thinking maybe a little bigger picture -- I mean, I can remember about 15
years ago, I think it was in 2000, during the presidential race, in fact,
in 2000, there was the big debate then about the status of the Confederate
flag in South Carolina. And the resolution back then, they moved it off
the roof, but they put it to this place we see today.

It seemed to suggest that there was a permanence, that this flag was
never -- they were never going to be able to get rid of this flag. Did you
look at today -- is today a day you ever thought you`d see?

CLARENCE PAGE, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Well, I wasn`t planning on seeing
it, but I`m delighted that it`s happened. I`m old enough to remember Jim
Crow segregation when I was a kid. And those were the last days, in many
ways, of the Civil War, but I think we`re really seeing the last days now.
When you see how emotionally attached people are to that flag, either
positively or negatively, it represents so much.

Just a few years ago, a governor got voted out for talking about
removing the flag, and now we see a governor who was reelected handily by -
- and now calls for it to be taken down, and it has actually happened. A
majority of the legislature voted for it.

It shows you how things have changed, that people`s priorities have
changed and the state wants to move ahead into the future and not be held
down by the past.

KORNACKI: Well, on "The Today Show" this morning, Governor Nikki
Haley spoke about the importance of the flag`s removal.

( VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: Well, Representative Rutherford, as we say, the report from
NBC`s Craig Melvin today on the scene there, the governor seemed to have
tears in her eyes watching this, seemed genuinely moved to be a part of
this, to play a leading role in this.

I think a lot of people nationally have been impressed by the
leadership she`s shown here in these last few weeks. At the same time,
this is not an issue that before the last few weeks this governor had much
interest in addressing. Clarence talked about the history of a former
governor who probably lost his job earlier, about 20 years ago, because he
tried to take the flag off the roof.

Within South Carolina, tell us about the culture of the state right
now, how this is going over. Is there a backlash that`s brewing there sort
of in the grassroots in South Carolina against Nikki Haley, against people
who took this flag down today?

RUTHERFORD: You know, I can tell you that more likely than not there
probably is.

If you look geographically at those people that voted to keep the flag
up, most of them came from the upstate. And so a lot of those people are
very upset today. The upstate is not majority black. There are not a lot
of black living in the upstate. And that`s probably why they feel that way
and very comfortable having those type of feelings about the flag.

Representative Jenny Horne, who spoke yesterday, spoke on the state --
who spoke when we were dealing with this very passionately, what allowed us
to get the ball over the goal line, I think today she`s feeling a lot of
heat from her Republican lawmakers because it did not give them a victory.
They could not pass an amendment. And I think they`re very upset with her
about this.

We have got so many other issues in South Carolina that we need to
deal with. And I believe that, without that flag, we will be able to deal
with those issues in a much better way. But I can tell you that I know
that there`s going to be some political heat to pay for taking that flag
down.

KORNACKI: Well, as I mentioned, some are suggesting that Governor
Nikki Haley`s national political future could be very bright after all
this, after she signed the legislation yesterday. "The Washington Post"`s
Philip Rucker tweeted, "If Jeb Bush was watching TV just now, I wonder if
he was thinking, I found my V.P.? Big moment for Nikki Haley."

And today NBC`s "First Read" observed Nikki Haley has once emerged as
a GOP star and an obvious V.P. short-lister. Here was Chuck Todd earlier
today.

( VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: And Matt Lauer asked the governor about all the new
national attention.

( VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: Well, Clarence, look, but, nationally, in terms of national
politics, that`s a smart answer. When you`re asked about your own national
political prospects, you deflect the question. You don`t answer like that.

So, in a way, you could say she`s already talking like a national
star. But when you look at Nikki Haley, this is somebody with her own
background. She`s already appointed an African-American to the U.S. Senate
in South Carolina. Now there is this with the Confederate Flag.

This is somebody the Republican Party at this moment could have a lot
of interest in showcasing in the next few years.

PAGE: Yes. As I mentioned, she was reelected handily after helping
to improve the economy, the jobless rate there, the welfare-to-work rate,
the immigration issues, a number of areas where she showed real leadership.

And here in the midst of a crisis, and that was that awful massacre at
Emanuel Church, she stepped up, and she could see that the time had come to
help to focus attention on that flag as a way of really healing, beginning
a healing process that everybody wanted to engage in, because this had just
devastated so many people on the right, left, black, white, et cetera.

And now she certainly looks more and more attractive every day as a
national candidate. It would be very smart as a running mate at least on a
national ticket.

KORNACKI: All right, Representative Todd Rutherford from South
Carolina and Clarence Page, appreciate you both joining us.

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